In the second episode of our Financial Foundational series, Victor and Kim Gaxiola discuss their investment management process, building on their previous conversation about financial planning. They explore the importance of understanding investment models, the stages of investment (accumulation, preservation, and distribution), and the significance of asset allocation. The conversation emphasizes the need for a disciplined approach to selling investments, the role of the Resilient Wealth Planning Investment Committee, and the integration of financial planning with investment management. They also touch on the importance of tax planning in preserving wealth that will be the topic of an upcoming podcast.
Here is the full transcript of the podcast.
Victor Gaxiola:
Okay, ready?
Victor Gaxiola:
Well, thank you again, Matthew, for that introduction. Glad to be here and joining me is Kim. So Kim and I are actually taking the reins in today's show to talk about the investment process, the investment management process. And this is really just coming off the heels, Kim, of the last podcast, which was really talking about financial planning. So in that podcast, if you've listened to it, we talked about how the financial process is really that. It's looking at identifying a destination.
Victor Gaxiola:
and then identifying where you are and then creating a roadmap that's going to get you from where you are to where you want to be. And so today's conversation is talking about the actual vehicle, the actual vehicle that is driving that engine to get you from point A to point B. So let's talk about it.
Kim Gaxiola:
Yeah.
Kim Gaxiola:
Let's get in the car, let's fasten our seatbelt and actually figure out what kind of car we need to build for you, right?
Victor Gaxiola:
Yeah.
Victor Gaxiola:
Right, that's absolutely right. So a lot of people that come to us, we start with that financial planning because like we said, it does identify the destination, identifies where it is, where we're going. And so the investment management process is now finding the actual tools from it, it comes to have specific investment strategies and models that are gonna help drive the growth that is necessary in order for us to achieve those goals. So why don't we start there? Let's talk a little bit about our models. How do we come up with these models?
Kim Gaxiola:
So at the core of every model is what I like to say a basket full of stocks that are no drama stocks. This came from many, many years ago and our start at AG Edwards back when AG Edwards existed.
Kim Gaxiola:
And I remember very clearly when they talked to us about rising dividend stocks and some of the older advisors that said, you know, I had my grandma in this portfolio ever, you know, for her whole life or her whole retirement at least. And she felt comfortable with these stocks because she was able to sleep at night no matter what kind of turbulence was going on.
Kim Gaxiola:
in the marketplace, she was able to sleep at night with the stocks that she owned. And I think a lot of that comes from the fact that a lot of us will know the names behind a lot of these companies. That makes people very comfortable with knowing what they own. because when you don't know what you own, it's very uncomfortable when we see the stock market going haywire or a certain stock.
Kim Gaxiola:
losing value because we're not really sure what that company is all about or what that mutual fund is all about. And so I really love for our clients to hold a basket of stocks and know what they hold. And I like the rising dividend story because, you know, the companies that we look for are those companies
Kim Gaxiola:
that have a long history of increasing their dividends. And that's a story that we can back. It's an easy decision to make whether we continue to hold on to a stock or not, if we see that their finances are not gonna support a rising dividend in the future. And it creates a nice discipline in what kind of companies to own and when to sell companies.
Victor Gaxiola:
That's in really addressing the equity portion of most of the portfolios and models that we build. Taking a little bit of a step back, Kim and I and now Carolyn are a three-party investment committee that meets every two weeks or so to talk about where the economy is going, the different analysts, the different economists that we listen to, whether it's through podcasts or webinars that help inform where we think things are heading in the next three to six months or for the next year or so.
Victor Gaxiola:
And what that does is those conversations drive exactly what the composition of these models are going to look like. So at its core, what we really look at is after going through the financial planning process, at that point, we would have identified that individuals or couples might be in one of three primary stages in their lives. So the first one, and this actually constitutes the largest of our customer base, is those that we call accumulators. So these are people that are still working.
Victor Gaxiola:
they're still possibly contributing to their work sponsored retirement plan, be it a 401k or a 403b or some sort of retirement plan that they've got set up at work. For small business owners, that could be a SEP IRA or a specific retirement vehicle. The point is that these people are still working, they're still contributing to building that nest egg, which they hope to derive an income from later on when they do retire.
Victor Gaxiola:
The second stage, and this is the real critical stage, Kim, I want you to spend a little bit time talking about this, is the preservation stage. The retirement red zone, I can't remember who coined that, but this is really looking at people that are approaching maybe about five years, three to five years from retirement, but it also covers a time period right after they retire, the next three to five years. So it's usually around a 10-year range where preservation is really what we're looking at because they've worked so hard to develop this nest egg. We don't want them to…you know, make a misstep as soon as they start retiring and start getting overly aggressive or perhaps overly conservative because they need this nest egg to last them all through the final stage, which we call the distribution stage. And at this point, this is really where that tagline, what will your money works for you really comes into place. Because at that point, if all things have been done well, and we did our job on the financial planning side, and we've defined what kind of lifestyle clients want to have, then during the distribution stage, their portfolio as well as other income sources should provide the income that they need to lead the lifestyle that they hope to have. So those are the three, accumulation, preservation, and distribution. But I pointed out preservation, Kim, talk a little bit about why that's so important.
Kim Gaxiola:
Absolutely. before we even talk about that, I want to backtrack and say that, you know, when we're talking about investments, everybody is always talking about asset allocation, which is very important. I mentioned our core strategy when it comes to stocks, because in every portfolio, we need to have growth in that for the future. We don't have a crystal ball.
Kim Gaxiola:
we can't tell how long people are going to be retired. And so we need to make sure that money lasts more than our clients do. So that's really important. But I would argue that in even more important thing to think about besides asset allocation is asset location. And so I think it's important to talk a little bit more about that.
Kim Gaxiola:
We're not only breaking down our clients into portfolios based on whether they're accumulators in preservation mode or distribution mode, but we're also breaking down the kinds of things they own in their non-qualified account, which is either in their name, in joint name, in a trust type of account, versus what they own in an IRA and what they own in a Roth IRA.
Kim Gaxiola:
because you want to maximize not just your money and the kinds of investments you have, but you also want to take advantage of tax law and how to make the most of your portfolios based on how those accounts are going to be taxed. So really that's a big one for us. Now, when we talk about preservation, we really do want to look at all of those, but
Kim Gaxiola:
Most specifically, we're going to look at, depending on where you are, you your non-qualified and your IRA accounts, because those are the ones that people usually like to take out first. And I know a lot of there are some that want to defer to pulling from their IRAs for a longer period of time until they're 73. But sometimes managing taxes means pulling out of IRAs earlier.
Kim Gaxiola:
depending on that situation. Now, it's critical when you're in preservation mode, and I will define that more as like closer to two, five years is not the long end, but really around two years prior to retirement and the two to three years after retirement. It's really critical that we get that right. And
Kim Gaxiola:
By doing that, we need to make sure that any correction that happens in that preservation years has the least amount of impact on your portfolio. So we actually have to go a bit more conservative. We also need to think about our preservation clients first, really. When we see that things are getting dicey,
Kim Gaxiola:
the first place we are evaluating our clients' portfolios are going to be those that are in preservation mode because we need to be very quick and nimble with these portfolios. And that's where I want to bring back that asset location situation because if we need to trim stock positions because we feel like we're in a situation where the market's highly overvalued and probably will pull back.
Kim Gaxiola:
We're very cautious about doing that in a non-qualified account if it's going to be a temporary setback. But in an IRA, you know, or a Roth IRA, we may be able to make more changes quicker because we are not worried about a tax impact when we're making those trades. And so really, there's a lot to manage with what types of accounts and what our trading strategy is for that account.
Kim Gaxiola:
and making sure that we are protecting those in the preservation mode. Because, you know, this is a math problem, but I learned it once and I think it's really valuable lesson to know, you know, Victor, what happens if you lose 50% of the value of your portfolio? What do you need to make back to get into profitability?
Victor Gaxiola:
Well to get back into profitability, you have to make more than 50% just because you're making up for the losses. And so I can't remember what the number is, but it's higher than 50%. I think it's 100%, isn't it? Yeah.
Kim Gaxiola:
It's 100%. Yes, it's 100%. But if you lose 8 % of your portfolio's value, you only need to make 9 % to get back into profitability. we need that is first and foremost on my mind every time I think about what happens during a correction. How do we get clients back to where they were and moving up into higher grounds and
Kim Gaxiola:
You know, if your portfolio goes from a million to 500,000, if we told you and you're in preservation mode and we told you you could take out $40,000 next year because you're retiring with a million dollar portfolio and now you only have for 500,000, you're not gonna, it's not gonna work. I mean, you could definitely fail in retirement and run out of money. And so it's really important.
Kim Gaxiola:
to set that straight in those first couple of years prior to retirement and after retirement.
Victor Gaxiola:
You know, and one other thing that I'll add, in my experience, it's as people are approaching retirement or reaching a retirement age, and it's usually somewhere in their mid 60s to late 60s, those also happen to be with a lot of people, especially those that work in tech or people who work in professional, in a professional capacity, the years where they're making the most money when it comes to their salary or their compensation. And so the decisions going back to the planning,
Victor Gaxiola:
on whether or not they retire at 65 versus 67 versus 70, can make a huge impact because that's two to five years less of income when they're generating the most income on a year over year basis.
Kim Gaxiola:
Yeah, yeah. And so I am so mindful of that. I only want to have to make 9 % to get somebody back into profitability. And so that's why it's really important during that time. Now, if you are in accumulation mode, 10 years plus to retirement, you have plenty of time to make that back. And you're probably also contributing still.
Kim Gaxiola:
And so you're reaping the rewards of a 50% correction. You're buying more at half the price. So, you you have a luxury in accumulation mode that you don't have if you're in preservation mode. then in distribution, know, distribution also very important. We cannot forget about these people. And distribution mode is like the second place we will look to make any changes if need be.
Kim Gaxiola:
Now what happens in distribution mode, it's kind of funny. I think, I hope that people remember this when I say this, is that you will probably withdraw money from your retirement, from your investment accounts when you're retired. With the, not withdrawal, but maybe spend. Let me just say this. You will spend money like your smiley face. So if we have a smiley face here.
Kim Gaxiola:
You know that it's higher up at the front and then it gets lower and then it goes up again. And that's how spending typically occurs in your retirement. And that's why you're still in preservation and the first few years of retirement because you're going to be the most active you're ever going to be in your distribution phase. You're super happy celebrating. I hope you are taking trips, spending time on your hobbies.
Kim Gaxiola:
doing a bunch of fun things, maybe taking your grandkids on vacation, all of the things that you never had time to do while you were working full time, you're going to be able to do and you're going to want to do them in the first few years. And that's why we say it's always a lot more spending upfront. Then as you maybe get into your late seventies, early eighties, you are, you slow down, you know, we're naturally going to slow down because we're aging.
Kim Gaxiola:
And also I think in your mindset shifts to like, have a good life. There's not a whole lot more I need. You may be scaling back on downsizing your home and you're like, don't buy me any more things. I really don't need much. And so you spend a lot less during those years. And then the thing that would create you to have to spend again a lot would be.
Kim Gaxiola:
once you are needing any type of assistance in long-term care, whether that's in your home or in a long-term care assistance facility, it's going to cost you.
Victor Gaxiola:
Right, so as you can tell, there's a lot of different facets, a lot of moving parts when it comes to determining the appropriate model and approach when it comes to investments. But I think at its core, it really starts with developing a strategy, which we talked a little bit on the financial planning side. So the same thing applies on the investment side. It's part, know, continuing to use the car analogy is trying to determine exactly what kind of engine we need in order for us to reach our destination.
Victor Gaxiola:
And then the next level of that is looking at the individual component parts of that engine. And so in our case, when it comes to the investment strategy committee, I mean, we are informed a lot by what's happening based on the economy, informed a lot by what's happening in the marketplace by listening to different analysts, having our own conviction. And then from that, creating portfolios that are made up of equities. And Kim, I had already pointed out the chief.
Victor Gaxiola:
The main investment strategy that we have there on the equity side is individual stock ownership of dividend paying stocks. So that's usually anywhere between 25 to 30 individual holdings, completely diversified from the standpoint that they represent multiple different sectors, market caps, large, mid, and small. And then if you peel a little bit further, looking at the exposure between domestic issues and those from overseas. So that's all part of the equation. And then on the fixed income side,
Victor Gaxiola:
You know, we're looking at different bond, bond funds, different ways that we can provide, you know, stable income in the portfolio. It creates a balance point against the growth and the equity to reduce the overall risk profile of the actual model. And then occasionally, depending on where we are in the economic cycle, we may look at some alternative investments. We might also take a look at other strategies that we think are going to be appropriate for either short-term holds or medium-term holds. And a lot of this is really us structuring these portfolios.
Victor Gaxiola:
and then constantly monitoring both their performance and composition and making changes throughout the year that are then reflected in the actual portfolios of the clients that we help. And so part of this whole process is it's ongoing, it's flexible. It's not something that's like a set it and forget it. It is a living actual model, living investments that we're monitoring. And then at least once a year, we love to sit down with our clients and review performance, review
Victor Gaxiola:
what's happened, the things that contributed to the portfolio, some of the things that we might have sold and the reasons why we sold them out of the portfolio. And it's an ongoing dialogue. So that's really in a nutshell how we think about the process on our end. Kim's been doing this for 20 plus years. And so I like to remind people that you see some gray, battle scarred by the fact that we've seen so many different types of markets. We've seen the patterns that take place.
Victor Gaxiola:
And a lot of it is driven by consumer sentiment. can look past the noise and it always reverts to the fundamentals. So it's interesting when Kim started off by talking about these these dividend paying stocks. And I'm always reminded and I always say of the story of the rabbit, you know, or the turtle in the hair, right. And running that race. A lot of people love the shiny new toy. You know, they love the speed and the flexibility expecting double digit returns on a, you know, in a short time period.
Kim Gaxiola:
Yes.
Kim Gaxiola:
Yes.
Victor Gaxiola:
And there are definitely investments. Those are the ones that get the headlines when you see cryptocurrencies and different things that just go through the moon, but they're always short-lived, you know? And so what we're looking for is that turtle that's gonna get you across the finish line without the drama that is usually associated with volatility.
Kim Gaxiola:
Yes, and.
Kim Gaxiola:
Yes, and there is a place in some of the different types of accounts to put something that is a higher growth vehicle. There is a place for that, but to put everything there is very scary. and you know, these days, so many people, when we look at 401ks and holdings, the good news is they're asset allocated and diversified, but
Kim Gaxiola:
we are seeing now more than I've ever seen in my life. I mean, I would say four out of five clients, usually when they walk in our doors for the first time, we're seeing that they own lifestyle funds, the retirement, glide path type of fund in their account. 401ks have never really been the quick to market with.
Kim Gaxiola:
asset, you know, with the various asset classes and different investment styles, what you're going to get there is a very much a cookie cutter situation. And, you know, we've seen in the past 10 years, really a higher concentration in international, which is a higher level of risk. And but yet there has been no, no great
Kim Gaxiola:
performance to justify taking that risk. So it really is something to think about and evaluate with those funds. They probably aren't going, they probably, if you're just starting out in a, in a career, not going to hurt you, but may not help you as much as you would like to be helped. So that's really something to take into consideration there. And, and also, you know, talking about being around for quite a long time.
Kim Gaxiola:
I still know companies today that were the high-flying, you know, Nvidia or other high-growth companies of the late 1990s. I know these companies now. I'm not going to give them a bad rep and tell you which ones they are, but some of those companies had, you know, skyrocket stock performance.
Kim Gaxiola:
only to fall down to fractions of their value and not make it back to those high watermarks until the last 10 years.
Kim Gaxiola:
There are companies that witness that. And so it's really important if you think, I mean, those companies were companies that we thought were invincible and probably the most profitable, most sound business products that lost value and never really returned.
Kim Gaxiola:
to those full values until the last five to 10 years. So nothing is foolproof. And don't overweight in tech. Those people, again, in late 1990s, early 2000s, if you did hold a lot of tech, which a lot of people did, and if you looked under the hood of most mutual funds, their concentration was 30%, 40%, 50% in technology. But those funds that...
Victor Gaxiola:
Yeah.
Kim Gaxiola:
were more diversified and that did buy more dividend paying stocks and value oriented positions. Those funds really didn't lose as much as the tech companies did and they were back in profitability much sooner. And so, you know, it's hard not to get caught up in the greed, but it's also hard to get back in.
Kim Gaxiola:
when you're living in fear. So those are the two emotions that we deal with always when we're talking about investments and your finances, and we're highly aware of them and take that into consideration every time we go into an investment committee meeting and are making decisions on these portfolios.
Victor Gaxiola:
Yeah, and I think that you make a really good point from the standpoint that, I often say when I talk to people that it's very easy to buy stock, it's really hard to sell it. It's really hard to know when to sell. And so one of the things that I think where we add value to the client relationships that we have, especially those where we are managing the portfolio, is that sell discipline and taking a much more surgical approach to the investments from the standpoint that we're not emotionally tied to, you know, specific companies.
Victor Gaxiola:
or to specific bond funds. What we look at is trying to be extremely objective in looking at the actual composition and saying, is this stock still meeting its objective? Is it still a good place for this portfolio? And if it's not, we'll replace it. So one of the things that I think is important to note here is that we do have that discretion to make those changes. And it allows us to be very methodical when it comes to the decision.
Victor Gaxiola:
but then very nimble in the execution. So once we make that decision and we say, hey, we're gonna get out of this and buy this, we can do it in a moment's notice. And the nice thing about that is it doesn't require us to pick up the phone and call every single client that owns that stock that we're selling to get them to buy in, and we can execute this all at once. So everybody gets the same price and it happens all at the same time. So I think that is an important point to note.
Victor Gaxiola:
The other point I wanted to go back to what you had said about the 401k, in my experience, where you do see performance in a 401k, it's primarily for two reasons. One, it's because the people aren't messing around with their allocations, they're just kind of setting it and forgetting it, you know, so they're not trying to chase performance. And then the second thing, and this is probably the bigger contributor, is that they're consistently adding to their portfolio every two weeks that they're getting paid, so that they have that discipline to invest.
Victor Gaxiola:
in good times and in bad and as a result that leads to long term, you know, better results, I think. But like I said, those are usually the only times where I'll see performance in a 401k.
Kim Gaxiola:
That's right. The discipline that goes in every couple of weeks or every month or what have you is really meaningful.
Victor Gaxiola:
So this was just a good bookend. The last podcast when we talking to Carolyn about financial planning, that is like I said, really establishing your destination and the roadmap to get you there. Today is talking about the actual vehicle, which is the investment side. But as you can see, they complement each other. And how they complement each other is ensuring that the investments are driving that growth that is necessary to meet those needs for that lifestyle. And the other part of it is in looking at the actual composition of the portfolios,
Victor Gaxiola:
We oftentimes when working with families, you'll have a couple of IRAs, maybe an individual account. So it's usually more than just a single account. So another thing that we'll take into consideration, maybe Kim you can speak to this a little bit more than I can. We take a look at how each of those portfolios complement each other. It's not like they're coming in and everybody has everything invested in exactly the same ways. Because there again, we'll take a look at risk, risk tolerance.
Victor Gaxiola:
Oftentimes, you know, one of the two in the couple is a little bit more risky, likes to take on a little bit more risk, in which case we might skew the portfolio that way. But then in looking at the composition of the overall portfolio, so this is talking about all of the accounts, talk a little bit about how, you know, what that looks like and the conversations that take place around that.
Kim Gaxiola:
Yeah, so, you know, we always lead with financial planning because it's really difficult to make any recommendations on investments until we understand everything there is to know about our clients financially. And so it's really important to do that, to see where everything is and to do things differently. And also, you know,
Kim Gaxiola:
We can be approached saying, you know, I don't feel like this account is making any money and or or the reversal of that. we don't need help with this account over here. It's it's growing really fast. You know, it's got really great performance. And I never take any comments about their investment performance on outside accounts.
Kim Gaxiola:
too seriously until I actually see the data. Because I don't know, your idea of good returns is different than mine based on the size of the account. That's why we like in our business to use percentages is because percentages does tell us
Kim Gaxiola:
the same amount, whether your account is worth $10,000 or a million, we know how much growth it has by a percentage versus if we just say, my account did really well, it grew $10,000 last year. And I'm like, is that right or not off of what base? And so we really wanna measure those things and kind of understand where that is when we're talking about all this and.
Kim Gaxiola:
And doing the financial planning is really important to kind of look at that overall and see where everything is and figure out what we need to do in the portfolios that we manage for our clients versus what's being done outside. you know, because we want to do things in a way that we feel comfortable that is not going to get our clients in trouble. Sometimes we say, give us your safe money.
Kim Gaxiola:
If you wanna buy those high flying stocks, put it in an account on your own and be prepared to lose it because that's not what we wanna do when we're investing our client's money. We wanna be that safe place that everybody is gonna feel comfortable with what's going on.
Victor Gaxiola:
Well, great. So hopefully this has provided a little bit more color, a little bit more background of exactly the approach that we take when it comes to the investment management process. It's something that we have been doing for quite a while and we keep refining it. Like it's not something that is set in stone. That's the whole reason why we have an investment committee to sit down and talk about these different facets. And the way we structure these meetings is every two weeks we might...
Victor Gaxiola:
focus on a specific area, whether it's fixed income, whether it's equities, even there, equities that growth-oriented versus income-oriented equities. We might look at international, we might look at some things that are dynamic growth, talking about different areas that might have better growth prospects. And it's really, again, a conversation amongst the team to come up with the best solutions for our clients to meet those needs.
Kim Gaxiola:
And we do that all coming from a different viewpoint. Victor is very closely managing our holdings and looking at that to see how things are doing, if something's starting to slip and we maybe need to put it on our watch list or what have you. I come from a more probably macro.
Kim Gaxiola:
background where I'm going to say, you know, where is the economy because all economies are cyclical. We have ups and downs and where do we need to position our portfolios knowing where we're going. I'm never going to be the person that is looking in the rear view mirror trying to figure out what to invest in next. I am the person that's looking forward to make our next holdings.
Kim Gaxiola:
that makes sense and knowing that you know, we're either overvalued and we're probably gonna pull back soon or undervalued and there's nowhere to go but up pretty soon. We don't have a crystal ball. We can't tell you when those things are exactly gonna happen, but we do know when things are frothy and starting to really look overvalued. The stock prices and the earnings tell us that.
Kim Gaxiola:
Same thing on the downside when things just look like bargain shopping. so, you know, we're the only business where people run away when we have sales.
Victor Gaxiola:
That's so true. Well, and then the other thing, and I've mentioned it before, also, know, operate almost as like a curator of different ideas and thoughts. I mean, we do look at best in class when it comes to different economists, different fund families, different analysts that are talking about things so that when it comes to, say, fixed income, we're going to listen to specific individuals or follow them. It's okay to have a contrarian viewpoint. I think that helps, you know, the diversity of thought that comes with portfolio construction.
Victor Gaxiola:
and hearing a different approach to things and then balancing and finding what seems to work. And with that comes the experience. So it's like putting, if there's different layers of digesting this information, then there's that additional layer of experience that says, well, we've lived through similar situations in the past and we know what the outcome was. And so a lot of it is not wanting to repeat the same mistakes again, right? And it's really just being a lot wiser about our approach.
Kim Gaxiola:
Absolutely.
Victor Gaxiola:
So, yeah. So thanks, Kim. So that's the investment strategy side, the investment management portion of our practice, which goes hand in hand with the financial planning. And then of course, we're gonna spend some time, a little teaser here, but the next leg on the storage, I think is super important, is the tax planning side. It's that, you talked about your plan, you talked about how we're actually going to make that money through the investments. Well, how do we preserve a lot of that by proper tax planning?
Victor Gaxiola:
so that we don't have to pay a bigger tax bill than is necessary. And for that, we're gonna need to bring Carolyn on board because as our enrolled agent and tax expert within the Resilient Wealth Planning team, I'm sure she's got a lot of things to say about that.
Kim Gaxiola:
Absolutely. I am so excited to have her as part of our team. It's as we work with more more clients together on all sides. Wow, I learned something from her on the tax planning side all the time, which just helps our team out so much more and our clients ultimately.
Victor Gaxiola:
So once again, we want to thank you so much for joining us on the Resilient Investors Podcast. Again, we always ask that you please subscribe so you get the latest and greatest. can now find us on YouTube. We're placing all the replays of the videos on YouTube, as well as our social media channels. And I invite you, if you have a question on our website, go ahead and ask us a question. But if you're interested in learning more about our investment strategy, schedule some time. Meet with our team. We usually have a link.
Victor Gaxiola:
as part of the show notes, so gives you an opportunity to schedule an appointment with myself or with Carolyn or with Kim. But you can also find that on our website in multiple places where we're really just inviting you for a conversation with our team for us to explore how we might be able to help you and your family or your business when it comes to being smarter about approaching investments and working with a team that has pretty much created a really good roadmap for both on the planning side, the investment management aside, and as you will hear shortly,
Victor Gaxiola:
in an upcoming episode on the tax planning side. So again, thank you for joining us. Hope to see you soon.
Kim Gaxiola:
Thanks for moderating.
### End of Podcast
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